EP5 Jacki Green

 Jacki Green unexpectedly lost her father to suicide when she was 18 years old, just a few weeks before starting college in a new state. Her father's death came as a surprise to not only Jacki's family but to the whole community. As a public figure, Jacki's father's death was highly publicized and Jacki found herself with information she never wanted to know. Now, four years later, Jacki is graduating college and looking back at what this grief taught her during these formative years. 

Content Warning: this episode discusses death by suicide.

Transcript

(phone ringing)

- Hello friend, you've reached Voicemails for the Dead. Please leave your message after the tone.

(tone)

- I'm Hailey Taymore Brown and welcome to voicemails for the dead. Today is a very special episode for me because our guest Jacki Green and her experience with the death of her father is a large part of what inspired me to record my original voicemail and to start this project in the first place. Please see the content advisory for this episode if you're so inclined. Jackie was 18 when her father unexpectedly died by suicide right before she started college. It has now been almost four years since his passing. Jackie, thank you so much for participating and sharing. We'll be listening to your voicemail, but first, can you tell us a bit about what was going on at that time for your family?

- So my mom, my dad, and I were traveling in Europe. I had graduated early and then us three were taking a trip and we were supposed to be gone for six months. And then we ended up coming back after three months because of COVID. And at that time before we left, we had sold my house so we didn't really have anywhere to come back to. So we ended up moving in with my grandma for the time being. And then that's when like everything shut down, which was pretty hard, especially for my dad. So he wasn't able to do like all the like recreational activities like working out and like seeing friends and like working, which was really hard for him. And he was supposed to retire, but he had to go back to work full time. And then during that time, his whole business that he'd worked on his whole life was going under because of COVID. And it was all shopping centers. So they're all closing down. So he was freaking out about that. So then we came back and then in that May, so May of 2020, he first attempted to take his life. So he overdosed on a bunch of pills. And so my mom and I found him and we called 911 and they came and took him and he went to a mental hospital for a week. And then he was released from the mental hospital and all the doctors and psychiatrists said that he was doing great after that. We didn't see like anything wrong with him at all. And he was acting normal. So then two months later, he kept seeing doctors. All of them said he was like, fine, we had no worries. We'd started to do like a lot of activities with him just to keep him busy and stuff. And we're taking trips because that's when the world kind of started to open up a little. And then in that July, we went on a trip, just my mom, dad and I to the mountains in Colorado. This retreat we used to always go to growing up where a bunch of our family friends were. And that was like a great weekend. It was during 4th of July and it was super fun. We just hung out with friends and stuff. So that Sunday we had gone home and my mom, my dad and I were playing card games and stuff all day. My dad and I went on a walk that night and he was telling me how much he like loved me and how excited he was for me to go to college and all this stuff. Everything seemed completely normal. And then he did the same with my mom. So like looking back now, we kind of realized that that could have been a sign. And then that next day, my mom and I went shopping for college because I was about to leave. And then that's when we like came home and his truck and his keys and stuff were missing. So we went to where his car was and we couldn't like find him anywhere. So we called the cop. And so my brothers all came back and then a bunch of people in like the community helped. So there was a bunch of different search and rescue. So that lasted for three days. And then at the end of the three days, since we had no clues where he went or even if he had like died, they had to like close the investigation. Randomly that next morning, the chief inspector who was in charge of it just decided to go on like a bike ride. And so that's when he found my dad underneath an olive tree, which was weird. So it was like referenced back in like a poetry thing he like wrote really weird. But yeah, so he was found underneath an olive tree. He committed suicide by a gun, but I didn't want to know how. And then that like next week I read about it which was really weird in the newspaper. So I think that was really hard like reading about it because I was like, I did not want to know that.

- He was well known in the community. And while a lot of people only have an obituary written by a family member to be published publicly, there was a lot of news articles about him. The first one being a missing persons report.

- Yeah, those three days, there was a ton of missing person alerts for him like everywhere. And that's when like a ton of people in the community like I got so many like texts and calls from people that I hadn't talked to for like years which was like so strange.

- What was your mindset at the time? Were you thinking that he was likely dead because of that prior attempt?

- We thought for the first two days, my family and I were convinced that he had like a mental breakdown and went into the mountains because he loved hiking and doing things outdoors. And then that third day is when we found kind of evidence that he had brought a gun, which was also weird because he had bought the gun a week after he was released from the mental hospital. But when he bought it, I guess it wasn't flagged that he was just like released from a mental Institute. So we didn't even know about any of that. We walked up after the first attempt, we walked up medications and anything he could possibly use. So he didn't like have access to anything. So then he ended up buying that like a week after he got out of the mental Institute. So he had it for like a month and a half, I think. That's when we thought he died.

- What was it like to find out that he was keeping a secret like that after the fact?

- When I look back on it now, I kind of think of him as like a before dad and then like an after. It's like before we came back. And then I think he just got so, he was just so far gone. He didn't even, like it wasn't, it was my dad, but it wasn't like him. Cause he was just so mentally sick that he couldn't really like think straight or anything. And he had gone on like medications. I also think that wasn't good for him. He was going on and off trying different ones.

Like when I think of that, it's like almost a different person. My dad that I knew like before that would never keep secrets from us or like hide or do stuff like that. And I think he was just like so lost. He didn't even realize. Like he thought it was like helping us. Cause he thought he was like a burden on us, which obviously was not true, but he was just so far gone and so worried and like in his own head. Like I always think of his team, feel like on the top and then like the lower and lower you get like once you hit like a certain level, there's no way to like get back up. It's like, and I think you're just sinking lower and lower than he just got so far down. There was no way for him to like get a lifeline or even like think about things clearly.

- Do you feel like there was precedent for this behavior in his past? Or do you think it was more the circumstances of his job and COVID?

- He like had struggled previously, had a hard like life growing up, but nothing like out of the normal, just normal human like ups and downs, nothing concerning at all. He was very ambitious and worked super hard. Work was really important with him. And so I think already retiring and then leaving was already gonna kind of be a big adjustment cause he was gonna have to find things to fill his time. So I think when we came back with COVID and being locked in his house and then everything with his work that he had worked so hard for. So not just like spun him out of control and made everything seem bad, I guess.

- You were only 18 at the time. How aware were you of all of these things?

- Looking back, I feel like now I can see way more signs, but when he first attempted, my mom and I had no idea. So even like she didn't know or any of my other family members, we were all very taken aback and did not see it coming at all. And then after that, we were way more aware, but it was also kind of that thing where like, there's no like, I feel like right or wrong way to do it, depending on the situation, but you don't wanna be like overbearing or like underbearing. So it's like difficult kind of to find the line cause we weren't gonna keep him captive, obviously, and do that would just make things worse. So it was really hard to get out after his first attempt how to act. Cause you don't wanna treat him like differently cause you're scared or anything. That was like really hard to kind of decipher, but my mom and I were both doing that together.

- And you found him with your mom when he attempted in May, correct?

- Yeah, my mom, well, he was downstairs and he attempted that night just taking a bunch of pills. She was like upstairs and then came down after he attempted. So then she called me immediately. And so I came down and helped cause he was coherent. So we knew he was gonna be okay. It was kind of the thing where like, he didn't actually take enough. I think it was more like a cry for help more than anything.

- So was he in therapy before all of this or was that something that you all ever talked about growing up?

- No, I don't think he ever did therapy that I know of at least.

- You are pretty close with your mom. This must've been really tough for her as well. What was your perception of how she handled the situation?

- She was very confused cause she didn't see it coming either. All of us were obviously like way more down with COVID and being like stuck in the house and stuff. And so I think we kind of all felt that way and just thought it was kind of just like how we were gonna feel until we got out of isolation and death. I know she was very surprised. I think kind of felt the same way as like my brothers and I where we just like couldn't believe it. Couldn't even like kind of comprehend it. Yeah, I was very out of the blue.

- You mentioned to me that you don't talk about your father's death very often. Why do you think that's the case?

- Definitely, probably cause of the stigma around it. People will definitely like view you differently, I guess after that and a good way or bad way they won't view you, but I just get scared about that. I'm also just a pretty reserved person. So in general, I don't really like to talk too much about my feelings, especially like deep things like that. So it's hard for me to bring it up. I got a lot better, but I really struggled for my freshman year of college just thinking I was like way less cause of the way he died.

- So you were worried if people would wonder why your father had chosen to kill himself and if that was somehow a reflection on you?

- Yeah, so now I realize that I've gone, I've gone through lots of therapy now I know that that's not true, but originally my freshman year when I was trying to deal with everything, I think I just thought that people would view me differently because of it and so I was scared of that and just make judgments about my family that I didn't want them to I guess.

- Did you have any specific support when you were in college?

- Not as much at college, I think it's really hard to with the age that I'm at because nobody really understands like death unless they've been through it and then like the death of a parent, I feel like is very challenging especially when you're younger already and then like a death of anybody or the death by suicide, I feel like people my age can't really comprehend it or like understand it. So I feel like it's easier to talk to like people who either lost a loved one or went through more life experience and so then I also don't wanna like burden people.

- About a month ago you recorded a voicemail to your father, let's take a listen.

(soft music)

- Hey Daddy, it's crazy to think I'm writing this months away from my college graduation. I never thought I would make it to that without you. I still haven't been able to wrap my head around the idea that you will never be there for big milestones like my graduation or my wedding. I think what hurts the most is that my children will never grow up knowing you. You would have been the best grandpa in the world and the thought of my kids missing out on a life with you is almost too much pain to bear. So many days I woke up and could hardly get out of bed because of how much I missed you. I never understood just how much grief can affect you. It's been three and a half years and it still feels like I'm carrying around a backpack full of stones on some days. I finally realized that grief never truly goes away. It might take different forms and be easier to carry on some days. Before you died, I never had to go through anything this difficult. I felt so light and free, almost trial-like. However, I matured quickly after your death and realized that pain like this follows you around in the world and is a part of life. I've recently been able to figure out ways to deal with the feelings of grief so it doesn't feel so heavy all the time. I love to remember memories of you or read the journal you wrote me. Starting college weeks after your death, probably wasn't the best decision I've made, but it is one I am glad I did. I remember some of your last words to me was about how excited you were for me to start school and meet new friends.

Sometimes if something happens and I want your advice, I'll try to remember what you would have told me. However, I wish more than anything I could sit down and talk to you about life. Losing you helped me realize just how remarkable you really were. You were so humble, intelligent, and wise. I never truly realized just how special you were and I am so lucky to be able to call you my father. When I think about what I would like to say to you, I just send up simply into one word.

Why?

Why did you make the choice you did? I've recently come to terms with the fact that the question will never be answered. I will never understand why you took your life, why you felt that you weren't good enough for us, why you felt you were a failure, why you gave up on trying, why you convinced yourself we didn't love you. You were and still are the best thing to happen to our family. You will always be my best friend, my mentor, and my comforter, and the best advice giver ever. You are the best role model and dad I could ever ask for and for that I am forever thankful. However, at times, I can't help but be mad at you for what you did. For now, I will continue to remember your legacy and try to come to terms with the why behind your death.

(gentle music)

- I've kind of felt the same about his death and like towards him throughout at least these three and a half years and I don't think it would change. I never struggled with being angry at him that much. I would be and I know a lot of people with suicide, especially, should look super mad about it or mad at the person who committed suicide. I just kind of more focused on seeing the good in him and I think what really helped with that is just realizing he was a before and after dad. So I try to remember the good things about him and the before dad and then realize the after dad when he did commit suicide was like, it was him but it wasn't him I guess. And like some days I'll obviously be way more sad and then one day I might be kind of angry. So that definitely changes depending on the days or the time of year or something like that. Most of the time it stays pretty steady.

- Are there any times when it feels harder to handle?

- Yeah, it's usually around his death anniversary and then that's close to his birthday too. So kind of around that time. And then when I have big things, I guess milestones that I wish he was there for or seeing graduation or seeing their people. I feel like that's hard. College is hard because I always see my friends with all their dads and stuff. I usually get really sad when I see that. When I walked for high school it was two weeks after he died. So I guess graduations is weird too because he wasn't there for my high school or graduation either. It was harder things when whole families are together like at my age. I guess when I see parents, I guess, and everyone I know has both parents. So I feel like that's always hard. And that's what I get sad.

- Do you have any peer support of people who have lost parents?

- No, I know of people who've lost parents but I don't like talk to them about it, I guess. I guess I've talked to like one girl, I think in a college. But yeah, no, not really anybody I know or like most of my friends haven't like lost loved ones which is really great obviously but I can't like talk to them about it because I just don't understand like the same degree. It's just easier to talk about with somebody who like knows that feeling, I guess.

- In your voicemail, you referenced starting college which you did only a few weeks after he died. Is there anything you regret or wish you did or didn't do during that time?

- Yeah, I think I was like so in shock about his death. I didn't really know how to handle it. I'm like very similar to him. I'm very like go, go, go, kind of like he was. That's why I went straight to college after because I couldn't like really stop. I was scared to like stop and then just kind of sit in grief and I have done it since then but I couldn't right after his death I wouldn't have been able to do that I feel like. It would have just been really hard for me. I do and I don't regret going to college because I think it was best for me to do that but it also just took away from college as a whole like relationships and like things like that. So I think if I like had waited a year that would have been better but then at the same time I don't think I could have waited a year. Other than that, I think I was just like so in shock(...) for like the first year. It was really hard for me to kind of like process everything. I would kind of just cry a lot. Like my freshman year I cried a ton.(...) So that wasn't, that probably would have been good for me to not go to school and do that I guess. Yeah, I'll go back. I do regret going to school right after his death. I wish I did take a year. - What do you think you would have done with that time then? 

- I think like traveling would have been the most beneficial for me like after his death. I thought it was like available and I can do that. - What about traveling do you think would have been helpful? 

- My dad loved traveling. So I was like really big growing up and then I think it just be a good way to like kind of remember him by and then also stay distracted and then be able to like process more about his death. Traveling is like one of the top things I can do to kind of like feel closer to him or like remember him. So I think if I did that right after his death

(...)

it would have helped me like process grief I guess in like a healthier way than what I did do. 

- It sounds like distraction felt very necessary for you but traveling would have been a different type of distraction than school was. I think what's interesting about school is that it offers you the ability to be measurably successful with a metric like a grade,(...) which I think makes it highly susceptible to being something that one can get lost into. So I guess what I'm hearing is that you felt like travel would have been distracting in a way that was productive to your grief as opposed to school, which was sort of a distraction from your grief. Does that feel accurate? 

- Yes, definitely. 

- Is there anything you really like looking back on from him? 

- So he wrote journals for all my siblings and I and he wrote it each month from the day we were born until we turned 18 and then on our 18th birthday we would get it. So I think that was like something really cool that he did which I want to do with my kids. And so I think that is amazing to like look back and read over because there's so many like advice and like stories and stuff.

- What types of things did you do with him when he was alive? Was he involved in your day-to-day life?

- He was always busy with work, but he would always make sure to have time for like family and stuff. So like him and I had birthdays at the same time of year. So we would go on a birthday trip, just him and I every single year together. And then we had like this thing called butterfly kisses dance like in my area that we did, which was just like a father-daughter dance. So we would do that every year too. So those were like our two big things we would do like every year together, just the two of us. And then we do a lot of things too as a family. He was involved growing up and like did a good job balancing cause he owned his own business. So he was always super busy with that. So he did a really good job, I think balancing the stresses of like work with a family and trying to like be available. And then also like provide for us. He like would help me with school after school. He was always very involved with like my school and my brother's schools and like academics and sports and stuff like that. And we'll try to go to like all of our like sports activities and meet some things on the weekends. We used to always like go hiking together like as a family and things like that. I think he did a really good job like balancing it cause he was very busy.

- So this journal your dad made sounds really interesting. Have you ever looked at or read your brothers?

- I have read one of my brothers, but I just kind of like skimmed through it. But I've never like read theirs cause theirs would definitely be different than mine. I've never even thought of doing that actually. That's interesting. Yeah, no sections, but never like the whole thing.

- So tell me a bit more about your brothers. They're much older than you. 

- Yeah, all this is 11 years older than me, then nine years older than me, and then five years older than me. How do you think your experience was different from theirs during this time, especially since you were living in the same house as him? I guess I just kind of was in it more and saw it more. I didn't even really see him struggling, which is like the crazy part. He did a good job at hiding it. Like none of us expected him to like attempt again. But I guess I was just probably more aware of it and like more scared of it because I was like with him on a day-to-day basis. But they were all like would call him and text him daily. They came out to like visit periodically throughout that time too. One of them lived in the area, so he would come a lot when he wasn't at work. And then my other two brothers would like take frequent trips during that time to come visit him. So they're both, they're all very like involved. But I think I just saw it more like day-to-day and interacted with him more when he was like struggling. Being different ages and genders, do you think that factored into the grieving process? Definitely theirs wasn't easier at all, but like just different because they had like jobs and went in the workforce and stuff. So I think going into college, and then one of my other brothers just started a new job. Him and I probably had the hardest first transition because he couldn't fall behind in his work or really take crazy amount of time off. Grief will just kind of change you, especially like right at first. So I think he was just really scared of that impacting his work. And then that was kind of the similar to me going to school, being scared of like my academics and making friends and like grieving during that too. So I think him and I were like different, but probably the most similar. And I think also it's easier for me to grieve openly more so than it is for them. Death can often bring people closer. Do you feel closer to them now than before? I definitely think we've gotten closer, especially like the year and two years after his death was super beneficial, I feel like, for all of our relationships. And we've definitely gotten closer through it, which has been cool to see.(...) And that kind of like growing together and like comforting each other during different times. If like one of us has a really hard time with it or something, we'll all be there to like support that person during that hard time. And if somebody else has a hard time later on in like a month or so, we'll all be there to support that and like kind of talk about that. 

- And what about your relationship with your mother? 

- We're already really, really close. But she's like my best friend. So that's definitely gotten a lot closer now. She like moved out to be near me and my other brother, which has been super good. And I think she's still, she probably had like one of the hardest griefs probably about her. So I think she's definitely still like looking through it. It's different, it's hard too when you're like, I feel like cause they were gonna go into retirement and then like losing your like life partner in that stage. So she's done a really good job because she's so grounded, I guess, and helps all of us so much and puts us first, even though she's going through like the same feelings and grief and stuff, which is really neat to see, especially like the first year and two years after she was there for all of us in an amazing way, I guess, even when she was grieving. But yeah, I think she's definitely still grieving more so still than like all of us. 

- Did she have any external support that she could lean on while she was being there for you all?

- Yes, she has like close friends who have been super supportive. And then we have like close family friends too, who have been supportive for all of us. But yeah, there's been some of like the, our family friends' moms, I guess, who were her friends who have been very supportive, which has been super helpful and call her, is it her? One of them left yesterday but was there for like a week with her. And then she has like her neighbor also lost her husband and they live right next to each other. So it's like perfect that she has kind of that community.

- When someone's exposed to suicide, it can often make them consider that for themselves.I often see this happen two ways. The first being a complete rejection of it and even considering it. And the other being a curiosity along the lines of, well, they did it, why can't I? What was your relationship to your mental health like at that time?

- I think it was definitely challenging because I hadn't really had many issues before. So I think I feel like I'm kind of like in the middle where like,(...) well, I'd never considered suicide before that. But I think seeing how it affected others, I would never do it because I think when you're wrapped up and you do commit suicide, you're so wrapped up in yourself, not like a selfish way. You're just so lost that you can't think of other people. So I feel like when people do commit suicide, they don't even see really how it's gonna affect their loved ones. And I feel like especially with suicidal, a lot of them think what they're doing is beneficial for their loved ones, which obviously is not the case. Like I would never do it, especially after seeing how hard it is for people to recover and like affects and changes so many people's lives. Like even just outside of our family, since he was super involved with the community and a lot of people looked up to him, it was so hard for like, I think like seeing it outside of my family kind of affected me more because I was able to see how like, he like touched people's lives. And so it was hard to see those people mourn him too. It was easier to see them mourn that my family because I was able to kind of comprehend like how much death and suicide can affect so many people. So I think that really helped me with never wanting to do it. My freshman year, I was super, super depressed. So then I feel like at that same time, they understood how a person could feel like taking their life would help other people, which like helped me kind of comprehend it more. I originally wanted to go become a clinical psychologist. I worked in a behavioral hospital. So I think that also kind of helped me comprehend more about why people would commit suicide. But for me personally, I think I definitely struggled a lot after that with my mental health. 

- Did you learn anything new about him through this grief process?

- Yeah, I knew he was remarkable growing up, but I don't think I realized just how like remarkable he was and how many people's lives he touched and changed for the better for part of our traveling. He was always involved with ministries all over the world, especially in like India. And had a lot of really close friendships and relationships. They like loved him so much. It was interesting to see how like different parts of the world people were mourning him. And then people close to me, it was just really hard to see like even just in my community day, I didn't realize how many people like kind of looked up to him, even his employees and like close friends. A few months after he died, he was put into our county's Hall of Fame. And then one of the shopping centers, he helped like develop, they put like a statue of him in it, which was really cool to like kind of memorialize him. So I think like that kind of helped show just how amazing he was. And then it also helped me kind of process his grief to like look at the positives because the way he died didn't take away from like how remarkable he was. So I think that was really cool just to see how many people he touched and like how deep those connections were. And then it also just makes me like amazed I guess how he did such a good job, like family work and then like outside relationships and like connecting with others. 

- You had mentioned there were some details about his death that you hadn't wanted to know, but because this was so public, did you find out anything else that you didn't want to know?

- Yeah, I was told by the police officers that because there was so many articles about him missing and there was like a bunch of news people around the area that he went missing at trying to like find details. He like had warned us that he was gonna try to like withhold the news as long as possible, but obviously you can't do that because his death was public. The autopsy place has to share that information. And so like we knew it was coming. I just didn't expect so many news articles and the details of how he died in the news articles. Yeah, cause there was lots of articles. The frontline being like suicide. So I think I was just kind of shocked that that was like the main thing. So I think that was hard for me because it was looking more on the negative. That's when I got scared that people weren't gonna realize like how amazing he was. Just like the general public, cause I learned like I knew he shot himself, but I didn't know like how we're where, which like I didn't want to know. So I found that out in the newspaper, which was really hard.(...) Cause it, I like had issues. It was like after reading that, like picturing it, I guess in my head. Cause that's why I didn't want to know. And then just how public it was, because like I said earlier, I got so many like texts and emails from like random people outside that I'm like, wasn't even connected with, I guess, which was weird. And then like, I also just didn't want like my friends from school knowing they knew he died, but they didn't know how. And then like the week after, yeah. And then I graduated a week later. So that was weird. Like going to see everybody I went to high school with, cause it was such a small school and like everybody knew. So that was really hard.

- Were those people kind to you about it? 

- Yeah, actually they were, I think they're more supportive there than they have been at college. So I think part of that is because they knew my dad. So they were able to understand and they knew like how remarkable he was. And here my friends never met him. They don't know. And they like, aren't going to really understand that. They just see suicide like first before they would think about him, just because they didn't know him. And there they're able to think about him before suicide. So I think that's kind of how it's been different between like high school and college. I think my high school friends have been way more supportive though than my college friends. 

- So you are at another big transition period in your life, graduating college and moving on to grad school. Looking back, if you could say something to that younger version of you, what would you want to say?

- Probably like taking time to grieve healthily and like realizing that it's okay to like process your emotions in like a healthy way instead of like shoving it down and stuff like that or not thinking about it. I guess I was so hard on myself after his death for like the first year or two about the way he died for my self-esteem really struggled and was impacted by his death. So realizing that that shouldn't have impacted me as much as it did. And like, I can still see like kind of lasting effects of that now, even from that time. I wish I just told myself to like stay true to myself and realize the way he died didn't take away from how remarkable he was and kind of accepting it for what it was instead of thinking it was like made me less. So I feel like if I wasn't with such low self-esteem, I would have acted in a different way. And cause I kind of feel like I let friends walk over me. And that was just because my self-esteem was so low and I didn't think I was, not like I deserve this, but I just kind of like didn't think I deserved much cause of how my dad died. Seeing it in like friendships and stuff and like now it's not really an issue, but like I did struggle with standing up for myself and stuff like that. One way I grew up was going out and I think I just formed unhealthy habits. My freshman year, not anymore. Going out and partying and things like that, which just wasn't something I would want to do. And then I feel like the main ways I think that it kind of like affected me relationship wise was with like guys, I guess, and like going out with people. Cause I feel like I just lowered my standards a lot because I didn't think I like deserved much. With friends, I feel like it was more like getting walked over and not standing up for myself. 

- Do you ever worry about losing someone else to suicide in your life or more just losing people around you in general? 

- No, thankfully. I think I just get scared of like losing somebody else like close to me. So it's hard sometimes to like form deeper connections cause I get scared of losing somebody or something like that. I think that has made me, like after my dad's death, I struggled with like forming like close relationships in a way cause I get scared to get close with people. But I don't, I've never feared of anybody close to me to maybe suicide.

(...)

- Were there any other big changes that you saw happen for yourself? 

- After his death, I matured a ton and my personality kind of changed. I just became way more like quiet and reserved, more like close knit. Like I just want fewer friends, but closer friends, I guess. When I was like the opposite in high school. And I think it just like made me kind of look at like the bigger picture. I guess like looking at him and seeing how many people he touched. I think it just like made me realize the importance in life. Kind of the like morals he had. He was always so humble about everything. So I feel like I really took that away from his death and just seeing how like death affected other people. It just kind of realized not to be as like selfish and just thinking about yourself, I guess, and thinking about like other people and like everything you do, like be more humble. And I also think it just made me like realize like too with like other people that you like don't know what people are going through. And like has made me way less judgmental, I guess, like in general, because you like never know what people are going through or what they're thinking. It made me like just realized more kind and like humble just in general and like more open to like other people.

- I'm curious if you felt like his death was in any way inevitable. With some deaths, it can often feel like it was bound to happen in simply a matter of time as to when, but with his suicide, it feels like it was very circumstantial. 

- It just went way out of hand and was like exasperated because of COVID. So I think it was totally like the actions that led up to it and like the situation he was in. Like I never thought he would ever commit suicide. I think if he waited like a month, he would have gotten through it. It was like the hump to get over, especially with his work, which was really stressing him out. Yeah, I think if he got over that hump, he would have been totally fine. I don't think it was like meant to be his way to die.

 - Thank you for listening to Voicemails for the Dead and a special thanks to this episode to Jackie Green for sharing her story. Our music is provided by Suboctave out of North Carolina. This podcast is entirely listener-funded. So if you would like to support this work, please consider donating on our website, voicemailsforthedead.com. I'm Hailey Taymore Brown, and thank you for listening to another episode.